Medicare fraud trumps public option

(93) Comments

  1. Squealer
    Squealer said on: November 23, 2009, 3:29 pm
    two feet bad... government workers have two feet.... government is bad.

    All animals are equal!!

  2. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 22, 2009, 9:42 pm
    Kadizzle, I would watch out for anything that Tom Freidman says or writes. He is an absolute shill for the oligarchs. Not to be trusted at any level. As I am sure you know well, apologists for whomever are just always with us. They always impede progress. The Hoopleheads are necessary in this process. Thinking is the enemy. Somebody referenced "Animal Farm" and it is applicable.
  3. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 22, 2009, 8:49 am
    Tom Friedman's thoughts are summarized by him in an editorial in the New York Times today. The article is titled "Thoughts from Grandma". A group has been started in Bismarck for recovering Hoopleheads. The group is similar to alcoholics anonymous. The group meets by the dumpster behind the Republican headquarters in Bismarck. Today they will review Friedman's article. Step one in their recovery is getting used to facts and valid information. Staying away from the delusional is step two. The Hoopaholics are encouraged not to listen to Rush or Fox unless they do so with an open mind.
  4. Big Brother
    Big Brother said on: November 21, 2009, 11:46 pm
    Charlie Rose ROCKS!!!

    He's like the only interviewer who is so in touch with what anyone else would ask of the subject. We're all think'n "ask em" this or that... and he asks em this or that.

  5. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 21, 2009, 10:30 pm
    Charlie Rose has an interview with Tom Friedman on PBS. I think it was Nov 20. I cannot find the video anywhere, but it should be available someplace. Tom Friedman gives an excellent explanation of why we are plagued with Hoopleheads. Anyone who wants to understand why the United States is in the current mess would do well to watch the interview. Our educational system has crumbled and most students have no ability to do critical thinking. It has become politically incorrect to have real debate and thought provoking discussions in the school system. The school system seems to have given up on the scientific method and the whole concept of research. No longer do you have to support your beliefs with facts, you just have to have a strong belief, no matter how stupid it is. The test is not how true something is, but how strongly you believe it. Students are now taught you don't fix a flat tire, you just pray for it not to be flat anymore. The lessons of history have been totally left out of the current curriculum in any meaningful way. Today students have no concept of how our economic system evolved and how people fought for the eight hour day, or the right to a forty hour week. Modern students have no idea of how laboring people were exploited or oppressed. The lack of knowledge makes them think the current right wing nut cases on Fox News have some basis in fact. If these student had any knowledge of history they would know that Glenn Beck is just a modern day McCarthy, they would see that they are being subjected to all the ticks that were played on the working class in the past. If students knew history they would know the right wing apposed social security with the exact same scare tactics they now use to defeat health care. Students have no clue what socialism is. All they know it is a dirty word because they hear it from their right wing parents. The school system fails to tell them how to determine if the United States is number one in health care, or is this is just a fabrication of Fox News. Education has gone from a process where critical thinking skills were taught to a process of indoctrination.
  6. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 21, 2009, 8:28 pm
    Kadizzle, I really hate to admit that you are right---it compromises my hope. The latest proof is Schlick's plantation analogy--not even remotely connected to the point. You have not answered my question as to has it always been this way here and if not, when did we fall off the edge of the earth? "He whose mind is changed against his will is of the same opinion still." Did you ever see a field of wheat with numerous large white heads? Sawfly damage. We used to call them Norwegian heads---really big with nothing in them. That was to generic for all Norwegians. But Hoopleheads seems to cover it well.
  7. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 21, 2009, 5:41 pm
    Big Jake, people like Slick just don't get it and never will, I have tried everything to explain to him in every manner possible how the game works, but he is like the people who go to Las Vegas and think they can win. They simply don't understand the way things work. Las Vegas lives on the Hooples that will be deluded until they die. Each Hoople thinks the odds don't apply to him. All Hooples believe the dream is just one lottery ticket away. To a Hoople it is inconceivable that the game is stacked. If one person wins in Las Vegas the Hooples ignore the evidence that ten lose. That is how the Republicans rape the Hooples every day. The real beauty is the Hooples voluntarily come to Vegas to get cheated. It is the same with the Republicans, the Hooples voluntarily let the Republicans rape them. Someday every Hoople dreams he will be rich, and when the day comes the Hoople doesn't want to pay taxes. So the Hoople doesn't do what a drowning man would do, the Hooples while drowning act like they are in a boat.
  8. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 21, 2009, 4:05 pm
    And pulling one slave's name out of the hat relates to our democracy how? How about this? The master (you) says "lets vote on whether slavery is fair or not". The vote from the slaves comes back that it is indeed not fair. Your response as master would apparently be "sorry, your vote doesn't count because you have obviously been brain washed by some freedom loving demons. Therefore we will continue to vote until the results are what I want them to be."
    Yeah, great friggin' story Kadizzy. Right on the money.
  9. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 21, 2009, 1:49 pm
    Kadizzle, a great story. Right on the money. The real question is 2 fold, do you think that any of them will get it, and why don't they get it? A nobel prize winner stated it differently, Frederick Soddy. We used the analogy of a game of musical chairs to make his point. You know the Brits---a sense of humor was not one of their gifts. The game was so effecient that the player did not know that the game was going on and never noticed when the guy next to him was gone. Soddy used that analogy to warn the Western world about the economic disparity that was occurring and that it would lead to WWII---but what would a nobel prize winner know?
  10. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 21, 2009, 11:17 am
    The master of the plantation walks out onto the veranda to address all his enslaved employees. "How do you like slavery?", he asks. In unison the slaves respond "It isn't fair". "OK", the master says, "How about this, when I die, we will pull one slave name from the hat, and you get to be the master?". "Great idea, the slaves shout, now we can work in contentment, and slavery isn't really that bad". Back in the fields under the hot sun, all the slaves are dreaming about the day they will be the master and thinking how good slavery really is. In the evening they go back to their shacks and are so thankful they don't live in a socialist society where no on has the chance to be master. These are fairy tales Hoopleheads can tell their children so they will work hard until they win the lottery.
  11. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 21, 2009, 10:53 am
    Schlick, I mistated about Buffet and taxes. He has spoken out about the unfairness of our tax code for years. He also has stated that certain tax "dodges" available to corporations are wrong and his companies will not use them. Buffet is not a saint but he has some unique characteristics in regard to how he accumulated wealth and how he manages it. He is opposed to inherited wealth---not a farm or downtown business but "big" wealth. You are missing the point. Kadizzle made one of the best statement of how our sysem is supposed to work--it does require participation and a reasonable amount of knowledge--even then we can and do make mistakes. Spin from Fox is not news---it could not be occurring if the Fairness Doctrine had not been gutted in the 80"s. Some of you seem to believe that the poor have always been with us and that justice is only available at the end of life and then the rewards or punishments are handed out. If you believe that, no intelligent dialogue is possible. I can find nothing in religious beliefs that commands one to suspend thinking--the opposite is true, some call it discernment. There is a huge difference between what we know and what we believe. I know, with abolute certainty, that the world was not made in 7 days. That knowledge is in no way in conflict with my spiritual/religious beliefs. The Hoopleheads have suspended thinking---that is the goals of Rush, et.al. It has happened before and will again--if we survive this current deluge of stupidity.
  12. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 21, 2009, 10:29 am
    Cynical,
    Well put and thanks for trying but doesn't your head hurt from banging it against the brick wall?
    Trying to discuss issues with Kadizzy and BigBoy is like trying to describe a North Dakota sunset to someone whose been blind from birth. No matter how beautiful it is in reality it cannot possibly be as good as what they can conjur up in their imaginations. They talk alot about greed but should remember that sloth and envy are also counted as two of the seven deadly sins.
    I'm sure they must feel like noble crusaders in their fight to bring equality in all things to all people. I don't fault them for that since equality and fairness are noble goals and I don't have the answers to the world's problems either. I do, however, know that when solving for X, reality cannot be excluded from the equation. I also know that all questions cannot be anwered by simple minded and repetitive blathering about income disparity and that just because someone's opinion differs from mine it does not mean it doesn't count or has been tainted in some way by evil forces. Democracy is the greatest form of government in the world and it allows for independent thinking---including that which is independent of yours Kadizzy---get used to it.
  13. Cynical Independent
    Cynical Independent said on: November 20, 2009, 11:06 pm
    So Kadiz, every single person in this country that is rich had their wealth handed to them? None of them worked 16 hour days, 7 days a week? We both know that is not anywhere near the truth. I believe you indicated previously that you were retired.
    Who decided your wages and determined you weren't paid too much? Did you ever take advantage of others to make your money? Perhaps someone would look at your situation and decide you didn't deserve what you earned even though you worked hard for it. There will always be those who have more than others for some reason or another. Remember, greed is one of the seven deadly sins and will be dealt with appropriately. Oops, I almost forgot, you don't believe in that sort of thing. Well I guess you'll have to figure out a way to punish the successful in this life then. I'm sure you won't have too much trouble coming up with something.
  14. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 10:40 pm
    Mr. Slick, I have tried to honestly answer your question. Try to answer this question. Do you think any rational intelligent person would vote for a system that would allow five percent of the population to acquire ninety percent of the wealth and keep it for generations?
  15. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 20, 2009, 10:27 pm
    Kadizzle,
    So in other words, the electorate will determine what is fair as long as the electorate votes the way you think they should.
    Everyone who votes in opposition to you is brain washed by the evil right and their opinion, and therefore their vote, doesn't count.
    Got it. Thanks for clearing things up. You have exceeded my expectations once again.
  16. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 20, 2009, 10:17 pm
    Jake,
    Buffett has been a multi-billionaire for years. Long before he began advocating tax reform. I also never said he uses questionable tax dodges. But he has and will continue to give the bulk of his estate to the charitable foundations instead of allowing the government to take it through estate taxes. This is a quote of his from an interview a couple years ago:

    "I think that on balance the Gates Foundation, my daughter's foundation, my two sons' foundations, will do a better job with lower adminsitrative costs and better selection of beneficiaries than the government."

    I agree with him completley.
    Jake, you seem like a person with some intelligence which is a rare commodity among your cohorts. But you might be a greater asset to your cause if you were less condecending, more open minded and weren't so intent on promoting yourself as the definitive expert on any and all subjects.
    With that I bid you a respectful good night.

  17. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 9:50 pm
    OK, Mr Slick, I will try to make this simple. Democracy is supposed to be inherently fair. In a democracy the voters get to decide how the resources of society are distributed. The voters get to decide how much goes for health care, how much goes for war and so on. To be fair you need well informed voters. This means they have to have facts and watch real news programs. If the voters are allowed to be dumbed down, then they are easily manipulated. For a democracy to thrive education is critical. Educated people don't believe, Fox News, urban legends, and scary stories that someone is going to take their gun, and make them marry someone of the same sex. Assuming you have an informed educated citizenry you should have a fair tax system. On the other hand if you have a bunch of scared, silly fundamentalist voting, no telling what you will end up with. The answer to your question is the electorate gets to decide what is "fair". However, if the rich buy the congressmen, and senators, and people like Rupport Murdock by the media, the Hoopleheads can be easily fooled and bilked. George Bush, and Ronald Reagan proved how that works. What is it about this concept you do not understand. The Hoopleheads are their own worst enemies. The Hooples have access to good information, but instead they choose to have nonsense spoon fed to them by the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. Our best hope for freedom and democracy is a well informed, well educated population. As long as the Hooples proliferate and breed by spreading misinformation the right wing will always oppress the masses and it will be easy to do. The Hooples are easy to scare and manipulate with fear. Nothing scares the Hooples like a black president, so the Hooples are ripe to be plucked.
  18. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 20, 2009, 9:24 pm
    Schlick, you need to do a little fact checking--Buffet has supported tax reform for years. In fact, he has chosen not to some questionable tax dodges and has written about it. He has consistently claimed that his companies have an obligation to support the country that has given him the opportunity to prosper. Schlick, you are not making a rational argument.
    Birther Bob, you are math challenged. Do you somehow think that what Buffet pointed out is fair? That seems to be a problem---some of you just don't get it---if you are in the bottom 75% of the population, you are subsidizing the top end--not the bottom. That is how are tax code has been wrecked by both parties--not just the Democrats. One of the most pathetic allegations is telling me that it is conservative, mostly republicans who contribute more to their churches and charities. That stupid Calvinist notion has been doing harm to the world since Calvin first dreamt it up. It is as far from Christian principles as you can get.
  19. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 20, 2009, 9:15 pm
    Kadizzle,
    You're the one that brought up Gates and Buffett as shining examples of morality. Yet as I said in my previous post they may give away the bulk of their estates but still retain $4 billion. What's up with that? How can they still be moral with $4 billion estates while little Bobby can't get his ear ache taken care of because he has no healthcare? I am not questioning the issue of fairness. Most of us learned a long time ago that life is not fair.

    I'll give you one more chance to answer a straight forward question with something other than repetitive drivel. What I am asking you to respond directly to is this question:
    Who gets to be the "greed czar" in your utopian society and determines what level of income and/or net worth is reasonable or "fair"?

  20. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 8:34 pm
    Interesting that you would ask who bought the pizza Cynical, so I will explain. The guy who ate ninety percent of the pizza bought it. All ten of the people eating the pizza were at the same table. They all worked for the guy who bought the pizza. The guy who bought the pizza inherited some money. With the money he bought nine lawn mowers. That day nine guys cut grass for five dollars an hour. The mower owner charged the customers ten dollars an hour and did nothing. One of the employees thought this was a little unfair. The owner explained to him that he would not even have a job if it were not for the owner. Being simple minded that guy shut up. Another employee mentioned to the owner that the owner never did anything but inherit the money and buy the lawn mowers. The owner admitted that he never worked, but told the employees his dad had worked so he was entitled to do nothing all his life. This seemed to satisfy the employees until another one spoke up and said, "This seems ridiculous, you get to eat ninety percent of the pizza because your dad worked?". Yes the owner answered, you guys are what we call Hoopleheads, you are meant to work, and we are meant to get most of the benefit, that is the way capitalism works, if you want what I have, get a rich daddy." Contented, all the Hooplheads ate their one piece of pizza while the owner ate ten. Glenn Beck was on the TV in the pizza parlor and everything was swell except the country had a black president and it was very scary, because the owner said he might not get as much pizza if then new black president had his way.
  21. Cynical Independent
    Cynical Independent said on: November 20, 2009, 7:26 pm
    Kadiz, who paid for the pizza?
  22. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 4:52 pm
    Mr Slick, do you have to be a genius to walk into a pizza joint and see one man eating 90% of the pizza and not know he is a pig? If you sat at a table and one person ate 90% of the food, would you ask the question "What is fair, who decides?". 5% of the people in this country get 90% of the income. Does it take a rocket scientist to determine this is not fair? Does anyone really believe five percent of the people do ninety percent of the work? There is this concept called sharing, and common sense. A CEO that gets 500 times what a line worker gets defies any logic. So since we cannot decide what is fair, there is no limit on what the pigs can have. Someone decided it is fair to go 75 miles per hour on the interstate. Someone decided it is not fair to kill another person. Yes people are capable of deciding what is fair. Who decided it was fair to reduce the taxes on the rich. It was one of their stooges named Ronald Reagan. However, the voters went along with the trickle down, and we got trickled on. The same voter should be able to decide they have been trickled on enough. That is how fairness is decided in a free country.
  23. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 4:44 pm
    Birther Bob, one of the problems with tracing who gives what is the system. The IRS can collect a lot of data. However, what liberals give is harder to track than what fundies give. I will use myself as an example. I did about 20k of volunteer charity work. Since I don't go to church it did not get recorded as charity. If you look who actually does the work for things like Habitat for humanity, and many other organizations where labor is donated it is usually liberals that do the work (This is BS by my own admission). However, think about it, Republicans think the poor choose to be, so they may give them money, but they will not actually work to help them. Also the Republicans do not support charities they think are liberal. Most charities are started by liberals. It was Republicans that fought all the programs to help the poor during the depression. The most important thing to keep in mind is who has damaged the poor by fighting unions, paying minimum wage, and refusing to pay taxes? It is the Republicans who refused to raise taxes on the rich to pay for the war in Iraq. It is the Republicans who refuse to raise taxes on the rich to pay for health care. It is the Republicans who are doing everything they can to make sure health care reform does not take place. Taxes and charity are essentially the same thing. The Republicans don't want to suffer in any manner shape or form to actually better the lives of the working and poor. How many minorities did you see at McCain rallies? Do you think the minorities are so stupid that they cannot see it is the Republicans who are the oppressors of the common people?
  24. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 20, 2009, 4:34 pm
    Regarding the wealth issue:
    I don't recall Buffett or Gates complaining about the unfairness of the tax code while they were accumulating their vast fortunes through innovation and investment success made possible by the capitalism you liberals deplore. I too will jump on the "unfairness" band wagon just as soon as my net worth hits $40 billion. That being said they are to be commended for giving away 90% of their fortunes (to charitable trusts to avoid the "unfair" estate taxes by the way) but that would still leave them each with around $4 billion. I don't have a problem with that but doesn't that exceed the maximum allowable amount in the utopian liberal world? Shouldn't they be required to keep giving until someone (Obama) says stop? After all, a combined $72 billion that was accumulated with no work at all will do alot of good for charitable causes but apparently not enough to make up for the fact that those two greedy demons will still keep be able to keep more than is sufficient to maintain the standard of living that you and I have.
    The big question you all avoid is, who gets to decide what is fair?

  25. Bob the birther
    Bob the birther said on: November 20, 2009, 3:18 pm
    kadiz: I agree with most of what your saying. Except this blows a whole in my theory. It supports it. Your mistake is thinking all ceo's and wealthy people are repubs and the poor are dems. Wrong. The people your railing against are the Kennedy's, Heinz's etc. Democrats. I know lower income people give more on a "percentage" basis, I'm one of them. If you havent yet looked do this and dont take my word for it. Go to google and enter who gives more conservatives or liberals. The facts are indisputable, everyone knows this. The middle income americans that give the most on a % basis are the conservative christians that you make fun of. Thats what doesn't make sense.
  26. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 2:43 pm
    Bob the Birther, if you check census data you will find lower income people actually give a higher percentage of their income to charity than those with more money. The extreme wealthy give about 3 percent. The typical working person gives ten percent. So this blows a pretty big hole in your argument. In pure dollars it would stand to reason the rich may give more. However, as we already know they don't pay their share of taxes, so the argument is mute. Next think about this, the two richest men in the United States are giving away their fortunes. That would be Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates. Both favor higher taxes on the rich, and most of their ideas fall more in line with the Democrats than the greedy Republicans. There is no data to support your assertions. Another way to look at charity is to think in terms like this, a woman worked her whole life as a janitor and gave 250,000 to a college (true Story). A rich person who inherited ten million gave five million to a college. Which one gave the most? By your nonsense it was the five million dollar donation. A typical Republican CEO who makes 500 times what the factory worker does gives away a couple million he stole from the line worker. According to your logic he is a better person. This is classic Hooplehead greed driven logic that just doesn't fly. You might sell it to the Glenn Beck crowd, but no moral thinking person would buy it.
  27. Bob the birther
    Bob the birther said on: November 20, 2009, 2:15 pm
    Dear Kadizzle: Please explain in your opinion why republicans give more money, time, blood etc.,to charity than democrats?
    There is a reason and some of the reason is religious beliefs. So why do you make fun of religious people then critisize them for doing as much???

    Big Jake, kadizzle correctly stated Buffets secratary pays a higher "PERCENTAGE" in taxes, of course she would. I already explained that. The difference is earned/capitol gains income...

  28. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 1:49 pm
    I stumbled across a book while doing my student teaching. The book was being read by all the students. The book was titles "This Perfect Day". Although the book had a science fiction theme it perfectly summarized how the elite control the game. If you are smart enough to figure out what is going on, you are invited into the gang at the top. You have no motive to change things since you are the beneficiary of the scam. Only a true feeling for your fellow man will pull you back to a moral life. Those in power know how and have the intelligence to rig the game. The temptation is too great, and we all suffer. The silly wanna bees on the bottom are easy to manipulate. Every wanna bee thinks he can make it. He does not look at the mess he is in, but thinks as if he were one of the guys on top he emulates. This works to the favor of those on top. The wanna bees don't do what is good for them in their current state, but what they imagine will be good for them when they are on top. So the hooples are duplicit in defeating themselves. The people on top just chuckle in amusement as the wanna bees vote them tax breaks. Nothing demonstrates this better than the trickle down theory sold to the wanna bees for so long. Religion is the other key to manipulating the wanna bees. This is where the guns, gays, and god game comes in. The Bush gang mastered the fundamentalist propaganda game. There is documented evidence about how people in the Bush administration openly laughed at how they fooled the fundies. The fundies have been taught to believe that Democrats are inherently evil. The fundies firmly believe that Jeeesus was a Republican. It is sad but true exploiting the Hooples is do da, and the right has no qualms about doing it. To the right the Hooples are just modern day peasants waiting to do their bidding. The nice thing about a Hooplehead is you can whip them into a frenzy in a variety of ways. Nothing could be better for stirring up Hooples than a black president. Add this to a little urban legend or two and it is just too easy. Sarah Palin won the Hooples with a wink and a short dress. Sara pulled all the right strings. She is a moose hunter, she is for family values even though someone got her daughter a little pregnant, and she stands up against people who read and think. The Hooples line up to buy her book full of lies. Of all people the McCain people have done more to point out her lies than anyone, yet the Hooples cannot resist someone like Palin to lead them over the cliff. Simple minded people will be the demise of our democracy, and Glenn Beck is creating them at a pace no educator can keep up with.
  29. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 20, 2009, 1:21 pm
    First to Dustoff3, your nephew is joining the ranks of those whose lack of patriotism staggers the mind. I know, he is just following the rules. It is guys like him that are killing our American free enterprise system----we all have some degree of obligation to make our country work.

    Birth bob, you seem to be saying that Buffet doesn't know what he is talking about. The point that we was making is that the tax code is grossly unfair and that his secretary is paying far too much of the burden. Do you disagree with that?

    Hal, you have now conceded that the system can work--if enough effort is put into it. Thank you.

    Big Brother---right on. I hope that they are getting better at finding fraud---I am hopeful but not yet convinced. The private sector has not now nor ever has had the market on competency cornered. There is no evidence that suggests that what you are saying about the inadequacy of our healthcare system is not accurate. It traded greed for providing the best product a long time ago.

    Paladin, you seem to be saying that the tea-baggers have something intelligent to say, or that they have any, ANY solutions to any of toda's problems. Could you cite any examples?

    Kaddizle, I confess that I must have had my head buried in the sand for years--I woke up and discovered that we were sounding like Arkansas. Was it always this way and I ignored it or is it a new phenomenon? Mandan Mike has correctly observed that there are enemies of the "people", but just can't connect the dots---the dittoheads and the Becktards and Palinites are carrying the water for the elites. His reference to the Bilderbergers has elements of truth--and there are others---the Club for Growth, the Trilaeral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations---all elitist groups--in today's world, they are leaning way towards the right but they always change--whatever direction the winds are blowing. They are everpresent and have far too much influence. If we practice our American system, their power is limited---as Jefferson knew. It is ours to lose.

    And again, have none of you got the guts to take on the wealth issue? If you believe it you must have some reasons or evidence. Or maybe Kaddizle is right---too busy genuflecting at the alter of the elites in hope for some crumbs or maybe your own plantation as clearly God has chosen them to rule. If Kaddizle is right, we are in more trouble than I have chosen to believe.

  30. Bob the birther
    Bob the birther said on: November 20, 2009, 1:05 pm
    kadizzle: The answer to your question is the money you invested and make capitol gains on has already been taxed. It should be yours to work for you. I dont totally disagree with you on the percentages, they could be tweaked.
    If a farmer and his family work their entire lives to pay for a farm and when mom and dad pass on why should the children have to give half-or a third away to the government. Its been paid for. That could also be called insane.
    Here's were you and I differ. With you its always democrats=good, and republicans=bad. My proof is that conservatives in every survey ever done that is credible have given more than liberals. That includes money, time, charity work even blood to help the poor and needy. Your side talks the talk but doesnt walk the walk...
  31. Big Brother
    Big Brother said on: November 20, 2009, 12:23 pm
    Warmachine,

    You can't use the ampersand... the "and" symbol. It cut's off your post at that point.

  32. Big Brother
    Big Brother said on: November 20, 2009, 12:22 pm
    "...and then they made this gigantic leap suggesting that the existence of fraud proves that government can't do anything right. In these comments,..."

    I would qualify...it's an irrelevent leap... i.e. the evidence does not support the conclusion, and in fact supports the opposite conclusion. Also not the existence of fraud, but an increase in the amount of fraud government is catching this year compared to historical averages... all as a result of increased scrutiny. The bulk of this is unnecessary procedures and tests doctors/hospitals use to run up and pad their bill. And it's somehow evidence of governments failings that they've improved their ability to catch it.

    Some would argue two wrongs make a right; because Medicaid/Medicare doesn't pay the doctors in North Dakota on the same scale they pay doctors in Manhattan, they're not getting paid enough. Never mind that maybe the highest paid regions might be getting paid too much, and never mind that it's still fraud and unnecessary procedures actually end up increasing the potential for patient safety incidents...a 1 in 5 risk in the U.S. per patient per treatment/procedure...somehow this is all a sign of government failure and not the for-profit industry's.

    If you want to say government can't do health care right, you need relevant data, and the critical thinker would ask for a comparison of government run health care against private for-profit health care. Duh!!!

    The relevant proof is abundant and makes it astoundingly clear that our for-profit health care system is in fact the worst run, most expensive, and least effective (actually doing more harm than good) system on the planet, compared to just about every government run systems.

  33. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 12:09 pm
    Big Jake, the gap you mention in income poses the biggest threat imaginable to our country. Ironically if you go to the CIA Fact Book, you will find The United States ranks like a banana republic in this regard. The CIA collects these figures in order to destablize, and or ruin a country if they so desire. Nothing is more detremental to a country than having a small group of people control everything, which is now the case in our country. Revolutions are the logical result of greed by those on top. History shows France, China, and Russia all were brought to a revolutionary state because those at the top took so much the rest of society could not function. The concentration of wealth in our country and the silly belief that the wealthy are the true providers is bringing this country to its knees. The nonsense that you give everything to the rich, and then the poor live from what spills from their pockets has been proven a massive failure. That is the trickle down lie sold by Reagan, Bust and the whole right wing greed machine. Our current economic collapse has been brought about by the misconception that taxing the rich to get money back in the hands of the workers is a bad thing. Slavery was based on Republican thinking. The master provided the slaves with a job, a house, and hopefully adequate food. Surely the slaves were not under the illusion that in order to eat and have housing they had to provide a mansion for da master. However, with the use of fear, and silly right wing propaganda the hoopleheads have been sold on a refined wage slavery system. The Hooples are deluded into thinking we can all be masters if we just put more hours in at McDonnells and buy our lottery tickets on schedule. Just be patient and vote Republican.
  34. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 11:56 am
    Dear Bob the Birther, what kind of insanity would say that if you earn money by doing nothing, you should pay less tax than if you work. Capital gains come from doing no work but investing. I make capital gains, and I don't do anything to earn them. My brother in law manages the money. So in your perverse Repubublican mindset you think people who inherit money and live from capital gains should pay less than people that go out an work. This is a very good example of how the rich have sold a bill of goods. The rich should pay less tax because they don't work? Please make up a spinner and tell my how a guy who inherits money and never worked in his life should pay a lower tax rate than a guy shoveling Republican manure.
  35. warmachine
    warmachine said on: November 20, 2009, 11:45 am
    Big Jake, if the gap between rich
  36. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 20, 2009, 10:11 am
    The editorial was about Medicare fraud---and then they made this gigantic leap suggesting that the existence of fraud proves that government can't do anything right. In these comments, we have wandered far away from that premise. Who are the bad guys here? The Tribune's position is like blaming the cops for the amount of crime. The criminals here are doctors, clinics, hospitals, drug companies, insurance companies, etc. It is a great American phenomenen---we seem to have a genius for finding loopholes and taking advantage of them. In this instance, the pillars of our communities are the bad guys. I have seen no effort from the healthcare community to police itself or condemn their fellows for being crooks. Shouldn't we expect that? I would suggest that this is more proof that they are unwilling or incapable of solving the problems of today. We certainly should have the wisdom to build a system that works. Unrealistic? Maybe, and I would further suggest that the elusive fix is caused by those whom we elect ---and then find that they are serving those who wrote the biggest campaign checks.

    Part of the comments here are about the gap between the rich and the rest of us. I would like any of you to clearly state that you either believe or don't that the growing gap and the concentration of wealth exists and whether or not you believe that it poses a threat to our liberty?

  37. Bob the birther
    Bob the birther said on: November 20, 2009, 10:03 am
    Kadizzle: The reason Warren Buffet pay 17% and his secratary pays 33ish%. Is simply because his income is from capitol gains, dividends etc. Hers is earned income. When Warren had his first job I'm sure his percent was the same as hers today. Good Grief
    You have a point here and there about companies paying taxes. Offshore companies I think are crooks. But that old Warren Buffet trick is plain deceiving and easily explained away.
  38. warmachine
    warmachine said on: November 20, 2009, 9:44 am
    Kadizzle,Kadizzle,Kadizzle, tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.......alas
  39. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 20, 2009, 8:43 am
    How many "Mike from Mandan's" are there? As you get to the right side of the edge of the Earth you find these people. Unfortunately North Dakota has a higher percentage of these extreme paranoids than most states. Sadly this makes it impossible to elect anyone Republican or Democrat with an ounce of sense. All you have to say to these guys is " boo, guns, gays, and god". We live amongst people who will buy "pull the plug on grandma", "Death panel", and Sara Palin. Hitler knew how to make these people dance. Glenn Beck is the modern day equivalent of a Hitler whipping up the hoopleheads. Most normal people brush these fringe lunatics off as not dangerous, but it is like kindling. If you have enough you can start a fire. The Bush administration showed us what can happen when a fire of idiocy ignites.
  40. Kathleen
    Kathleen said on: November 20, 2009, 8:02 am
    DustOff3, we are in agreement, you must have misunderstood me.
  41. Paladin
    Paladin said on: November 20, 2009, 7:21 am
    Kadizzle --- The genesis of the "teabagger" epithet was not Glenn Beck or Fox News, it was Anderson Cooper of CNN, and then Huffington Post. And the strident leftists really hit their stride and adopted it as their favorite derisive label. It really has nothing to do with "political correctness" - a fraudulent concept if there ever was one. It has to do with simple respect and civil discourse. Unfortunately, you consistently illustrate that both concepts are alien ones for you.
  42. mike from mandan
    mike from mandan said on: November 20, 2009, 5:58 am
    You know, we could all argue back and forth and throw insults @ each other to no end, but there is one thing we had all better get a grip on. It doesn't matter what side your on, the left, right, or in the middle. From Eisenhour all the way to the present, including Bush, Clinton, and especially Obama,have been groomed by, hand picked by, or belong to, a group of International bankers called the Bildenburg Group. This group of the "banking elite" have been planning and implenenting measures to pave the way for a one world order. These international bankers plan to loot the middle class, and turn us into slaves on a global plantation. The Bildenburg group organized the financial meltdown via Wall Street and thru Government programs to successfully bankrupt America and other nations as well. And they are going to do it again.You will see a rise in real estate investment, people will buy stocks and build their pensions up again, the Afghan war will escalate at a cost of billions, taxes will double and triple,the markets will crash and decimate what's left of any capital and destroy investment. People will have to turn to Government for help. Don't nelieve me? You all seem so smart on here, check it out. Google the Bildenburg Group, See who it's members are, and do a little investigating. We should quit bickering amongst ourselves, and focus on who the real enemy is, not only to America, but all nations.
  43. Mr Potato Head
    Mr Potato Head said on: November 19, 2009, 10:44 pm
    Kadizzle's comment:

    Here is a simple reality the right wing cannot cope with. The bottom 20% of the population in the United States consumes 2% of the GDP. The top 1% gets 17%. The top 5% gets 90%.

    This is only getting worse under Obama. Forclosures are getting worse and Wall Street is more inflated making another bubble. Geithner the criminal fixing up his buddies. Rich get richer. More of the same. Other than Obama spending more money, he's not much different than Bush.

  44. Ignatius
    Ignatius said on: November 19, 2009, 9:38 pm
    Schlick,

    I can't tell if you're giving up the boat with respect to wit, or if you think that was it.

    I knew you vegetables like to delusionaly prognosticate about the end-times, economic, liberties, or biblical, but this wishful thinking about that left running out of amo, as though Palin isn't on a crash course to increase her rank on the list of history's punch-lines, is very much uncharacteristic of teabaggers.

    You failed propaganda 101: The Gospel of Fearmongering.

    Fear evokes, not optimism.

  45. Ignatius
    Ignatius said on: November 19, 2009, 9:10 pm
    Right-wing freak show issues Fatwa on Obama

    "Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8"

  46. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 19, 2009, 8:44 pm
    The slow witted left wing liberals are running out of ammunition fast. They're even running out of soldiers. Popzealot's schizophrenia has finally erupted and he has (LOL) emerged as--giggle giggle- several different entities--(Big Brother, Jebus Saves, and Ignatius to name a few)--to try and shore up the flanks. There's only a few on this board that give this certified nut case any credibility at all and it is not surprising who they are.
    Yes indeed, the winds of change are shifting ever faster.
  47. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 8:27 pm
    Want some fun? Check out the movie "A Face In The Crowd". If you wonder why Kieth Olbermann calls Glenn Beck "Lonesome Roads", the movie will answer your question. The movie is about a television character back in the thirties just like Glenn Beck. The guy had the same format, whipping up the Hoopleheads. Amazing that the same tricks have been played on the Hooples as long as there have been Hoopleheads.
  48. Big Jake
    Big Jake said on: November 19, 2009, 8:23 pm
    Hooplehead Gazette---I like it. Somewhat of a stretch but it is funny. They are more "establishment" than right wing---they just dance to the tune of corporate and the advertisers--mostly the Chamber. Pretty common today. This op ed piece is a classic. It appears to blame Medicare for the illegal, immoral and unethical behaviour of a portion of the healthcare system--like doctors, clinics, hospitals, drug companies, and the list goes on. They are the problem. Notwithstanding the fact that far too many of the Medicare administrators seem to have far too cozy a relationship with the above. Or are we to believe that our government has made these folks corrupt. It is difficult for us to believe that any of our friends and neighbors could be corrupt--it has to be somewhere else. This has been true of our still corrupt banking system--not here---maybe Chicago. Kaddizle has his facts right--we are in an out of control system that is destroying our free enterprise system---absent good government-that is what always happens. If our nature was as good and in particular the rich, why do we need referees at ball games---just for fun or is it to prevent chaos. We are getting the best government that can be bought. Therein lies the real problem. In passing, my observation is that things tend to average our over time---like ice---the rich have plenty of it in the summer and the poor have plenty of it in the winter. What we are experiencing is the antithesis of what the Founder's gave us---along with the obligation to maintain the Republic.
  49. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 6:59 pm
    Terrier, I have made this observation many times but it strikes me as appropriate in your case. Being scared, and paranoid seems to be fun for the right wing. Someone makes up a scary story like they are going to take your gun, or pull the plug on granny. Rather than check it out the right wingers run around and tell each other the sky is falling. For the right wing having an intelligent black man as president is very scary. Most of the people on the right grew up in states where minorities were scarce. The right is enamored with the idea of the status quo. All change is scary to those with little imagination. The typical right wing rant always has a what if, or this could happen. If one goes through life always assuming some bad outcome will result from any change, very little will change. The Republican have a great deal to gain by scaring the simple minded. The Republicans have successfully ripped off the middle class for years. If the middle class discovers the real culprits the game is over for the right. So the right continues with the thing that has always worked, hate, fear, paranoia, and the old stand by of Guns, Gays, and God. Religions exist because it has always been easy to sell the poorly informed on some scary story about getting god mad, or going to hell. People love to be motivated by big scary fictional stories. The sad thing is there is usually a good bilking involved. The church has always bilked the uneducated with irrational fear. Republicans have learned a lot from this playbook.
  50. terrier
    terrier said on: November 19, 2009, 5:53 pm
    Since we are advancing on the Thanksgiving season...........I suggest that we all give thanks for the Bismarck Tribune and our great country......where we can voice our diverse opinions! I left this comment section early this morning and find that "Kadizzle" continues this evening to mentally "wander in the desert".........and "Schlick" and "Deb" and a few others make sense to me but we should all be grateful for our lives and our country. I am incensed that too few recognize a very serious turning point in our country's history and continue to "partisanize" (I made that word up):) what is going on in Washington. Hopefully many of us can divorce ourselves from partisan politics and consider what this country will become............if what Congress is about ......comes to pass. I don't think that what I sense about Congress in any way diverges from Congress' poll numbers? (that are infinitely less than the president's).
  51. Big Brother
    Big Brother said on: November 19, 2009, 5:33 pm
    "How you could infer that what Nickel said equates in any way to an argument for the rich paying no taxes is beyond comprehension."

    Yes ... Nickel's comment was the epitome of sober reason and not *really* a moronic freakshow of senseless delusions ripe for mockery via absurd inferences! ;-D

    Speaking of coal dust for brains, if you don't know what the people with wits are doing, you should probably leave the witty retorts to those with the wits.

  52. Big Brother
    Big Brother said on: November 19, 2009, 5:18 pm
    "It is an offensive, gutter reference."

    Which they, the teabaggers themselves, unwittingly came up with all on their own... making all the more priceless!!

    What a bunch of LOOOOOOSERS!!


    right-wingers should be a wake-up call to the rest of America, the Canary in the coal mine; we need to be scrutinizing the solvents and glues that people are exposed to daily.


  53. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 4:36 pm
    Paladin, if you are offended by the term teabaggers, I suggest you do a short history of who brought it into the popular lexicon. It was Glenn Beck and the Fox News gang that brought this down on themselves. Are they the social retrogrades you refer to? The purpose of words is to have descriptive value. Teabagging is the perfect description for what the tea bag protesters do for the rich, and I am referring to the urban dictionary definition. You should note at the Fox Protest it was the protesters who voluntarily decorated their hats with tea bags. The right wing crowd as a whole is ill informed, and if they had been more savvy they would not have brought this mess down on themselves. Sarah Palin is another prime example of the right wing blowing up its own ship. Any person above the quadrant on the IQ bell curve can easily see she is an airhead. When the Republican implode from worshiping her, are you going to blame the liberal media, and the left wing? The worst enemy the Republicans have is the far right nut cases like Glenn Beck in their own party. Rush is another asset that will insure their demise. Since you are a specialist on political correctness do you approve of Glenn Beck and Rush calling the president a racist and insinuating he is not an American?
  54. Paladin
    Paladin said on: November 19, 2009, 3:11 pm
    The Bismarck Tribune a "right wing newspaper". This has to be humor of the highest order. But can we agree on this, especially for Kadizzle who apparently takes pride in hurling insults left and right (so to speak). Leave the references to "teabaggers" to the social retrogrades that introduced it to political discussion. It is an offensive, gutter reference. Check Urban Dictionary if you are unsure. Do not proclaim innocence; those who use if most vociferously know exactly what it means, and are lesser for it.
  55. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 19, 2009, 3:07 pm
    Kadizzle,
    You're right about one thing---that was a very illogical conclusion. How you could infer that what Nickel said equates in any way to an argument for the rich paying no taxes is beyond comprehension. Either you have the brains of a coffee cup or your synapses have been compromised with coal dust.You seem like a guy who would have served his party well in the legislature---as a foot stool.
    If you continue to fight this battle with such stellar thought processes as that you better call for reinforcements from the prolific Popz, Thug and Big Jake. You must all have evolved from the same tree stump.
  56. Deb
    Deb said on: November 19, 2009, 2:57 pm
    Great Editorial!

    I assume the editors of the Trib will be at the forefront of the fight to repeal Medicare and Medicaid -- seeing as how they took the time to point out how poorly run and fraud-riddled they are.

    *not holding my breath*

  57. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 2:38 pm
    If you take the tax nonsense to its illogical conclusion, the less tax the rich pay the better off we all are. Therefore reducing the tax on the rich to zero would be the best possible outcome. This perverse logic has been sold to the Hoopleheads, and right here they admit they have bought it. If I understand Hooplehead logic, presented by Mr Trophy, the best way to assure poor people lower taxes is to reduce them on the rich. This perverse reasoning is exactly what the Republican party has been selling. It is nice to see there is still a good market for stupidity. Perhaps I could sell you an electric heater made by the Amish.
  58. warmachine
    warmachine said on: November 19, 2009, 1:57 pm
    Did Big Brother borrow Popzealot's thesaurus? Just a thought....
  59. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 19, 2009, 1:16 pm
    It seems to me that the statistics Kadizzle is using to justify his arguments do exactly the opposite. If the top 1% of income earners earn 21.2% of the nation's income and pay 39.4% of all Federal income taxes yet "get" only 17 % of the GDP, isn't that unfair to top 1%? How much of the GDP is the top 1% responsible for producing? Try as I might I can't make myself feel bad about earning less than $250,000 a year and not hating or envying those with annual incomes of $250,001 or more. Maybe that's why I can't bring myself to understand the liberal agenda---I don't have the requisite levels of hate and envy to draw upon.
  60. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 1:13 pm
    Mike from Mandan, you need to take some math or logic or something. Your argument makes no sense. If you go to Walmart more than likely you will find it heavily populated by people on the bottom end of the economic scale. If you went to a luxury story you would expect 100 percent of the people in the store to be on the top end of the economic scale. Simple probability would predict that the population of shoppers in Walmart pretty well matches the general population of Bismarck. so you would expect 1 percent of the people in Walmart to be very rich, 5 percent to have high incomes and most of the people to be average or below. Take a course in statistics, or sampling or just plain thinking. Once you complete the course try listening to Rush or Glenn Beck, it will seem like the fog lifted and you will know how they fool the simple minded.
  61. Nickel Trophy
    Nickel Trophy said on: November 19, 2009, 1:06 pm
    Kadizzle wrote:

    "The Glenn Beck teabaggers are a classic case. They freely admit they make less than $250,000 per year. Yet they claim when Obama says he will lower their taxes and raise the tax on those making over 250k that this is a bad thing. A strange bunch indeed. When we have reached the point where the slaves support the plantation owner, can we really get any dumber?"

    Not sure if I'm a Glenn Beck teabagger or not, but I admit that I make less than 250K, and I do not want those making more than 250K to have their taxes raised. Because that is just the first step -- soon the government will get more and more addicted to tax revenue (as if it isn't enough already), that the "threshold" of the "rich" will be lowered and lowered until we become a socialist nation.

    Long Live Reagan! :)

    NT

  62. mike from mandan
    mike from mandan said on: November 19, 2009, 12:49 pm
    Kadizzle; The bottom 20% consume only 2% of the GDP? So in Wal Mart on a saturday morning everyone in there except for 20% are rich? Hmmmmm. I don't think so. But in a previous post, you did state one thing I agree with you on is that it's the tax structure that's at fault here. Do away with the I.R.S. and implement a flat tax. Then Congress would have to live within there means, because they would be clueless of how much they'd be taking in. To Big Brother, Whew!! I'm glad your not my big brother, you should wash your key board off with soap after that post!!
  63. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 12:44 pm
    Finding it hard to believe that the Bismarck Tribune has such a silly right wing slant, I did a little investigating. It turns out that the owners are just like Ruport Murdock and Fox News. Some of the people that work for the Tribune are actually capable of real journalism, but the owner forces this right wing propaganda on them. If they want their job they have to go along with the nonsense. When I inquired how any paper could endorse some airhead like Palin, I was told the owner insisted. What used to pass for news and journalism now is the thinly disguised view of some rich right winger that bought a newspaper. Have you ever read an editorial in the Tribune that supported any cause of the common man? They should just call it what it is the Hooplehead Gazzette.
  64. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 12:27 pm
    Here is a simple reality the right wing cannot cope with. The bottom 20% of the population in the United States consumes 2% of the GDP. The top 1% gets 17%. The top 5% gets 90%. Now lets ask a rational person if those "Welfare Cheats" working for minimum wage are the problem, or is it the trust babies collecting dividend checks from the stocks daddy left them? Of course the guys on the top would like you to think it is the lazy bums on the bottom that are creating the mess, but are you really that dumb? The most amazing thing is a right wing hoople that is on the bottom being abused by this nonsense has been duped into thinking it is a good thing to live in an aristocracy. So many seem to have forgotten that we left Europe and came to this country to get away from Kings and aristocracy, now we have invented a system where the hoopleheads being abused vote in favor of the very people who are taking them to the cleaners. The Glenn Beck teabaggers are a classic case. They freely admit they make less than $250,000 per year. Yet they claim when Obama says he will lower their taxes and raise the tax on those making over 250k that this is a bad thing. A strange bunch indeed. When we have reached the point where the slaves support the plantation owner, can we really get any dumber? The plantation owner has told all the slaves that when he dies maybe one of them can be the owner, so now they all support slavery. Fooling Hoopleheads is not a complicated process. By the way did you get your lottery ticket, how else will you win the plantation?
  65. Jebus Saves
    Jebus Saves said on: November 19, 2009, 12:09 pm
    God helps those who help themselves.

    If you really want quality hip replacement with the "patient safety incident" rates at Medcenter one and St. A's, then just pull out your American Express Platinum and hop on the next plane to Mexico city, Hong Kong, or Bombay. Even with the air-fare, you'll still be saving money and getting better service.

    And that's God's design.

  66. Nickel Trophy
    Nickel Trophy said on: November 19, 2009, 12:02 pm
    Yay Trib! Keep fighting the good fight. We have enough liberal papers in the country that are trying to help this country on it's path toward socialism. It's refreshing to read something every now and then that backs up our founding father's intent.

    And before everyone (and by everyone I mean Popzealot, Kadizzle, and Union THUG) lambast me by saying things like "how would YOU know what our founding father's intents were," let me add this: I know, because I was there!

    :)

    Regards,

    NT

  67. Schlick
    Schlick said on: November 19, 2009, 12:01 pm
    To Just a Thought,
    I agree completely with your sentiments. Bullying, name calling and irrelavent rants make up the response to almost any rational opinion one wants to put forth. It sounds very much like someone whose repeatedly unsuccessful attempts to run for public office has imbittered him beyond redemption.
    Maybe one of these compassionate souls can tell us just who should be in charge of determining what level of wealth is justified and at what level you are considered greedy. Is it the level just beyond what they have been able to attain? How many homes or cars are allowed? Is a vacation home and two vehicles OK compared to what your neighbor has? Maybe one of each is too many compared to the homeless that exist in our own nation and the multitudes of starving individuals around the world. Maybe we should just reduce the standard of living for every one to the lowest common denominator? That should solve all the problems. Reality needn't enter into this equation.
    While I am not wealthy I pay my fair share of taxes and give what I can to charity. I do not waste my time envying or vilifying those who make more than I do and pay far more tax than I do just because they may pay a smaller percentage of their total income in taxes. In fact I am thankful for their success and their ability to give ever greater amounts than I to charitable organizations as well as to an inefficient government bureaucracy. I realize that with their ability to provide for themselves and their families they are not burdening our welfare system and I acknowledge that with their higher level of discretionary income they are able to contribute more to the economy which provides jobs for those willing to work.
    If this isn't acceptable then let me volunteer for the position of the Obama administration's "Greed Czar" and I will make the ultimate decision as to just how much is enough. I promise to be fair.
    Be careful what you wish for Kadizzle, someone who's actually in a position to make a difference might very well determine that according to their standards it is your standard of living that is excessive and offensive.
  68. Jebus Saves
    Jebus Saves said on: November 19, 2009, 11:57 am
    Medicare and medicaid are messing with God's design for us to profit from the sick and the dying. The free market, as jesus says, will save us, and it is when we try to counter the natural forces, all of which are good because they're natural, that we allow satan to take over. First we allow abortion, so the government can experiment with the remains, and now we're going to have the government in every exam room and procedure.

    The government does do somethings well, and that is gulags, death camps, and indoctrination.

  69. DustOff3
    DustOff3 said on: November 19, 2009, 11:52 am
    Oh, yes, I shall run to a third world country for health services just because their health care is so much better than ours? You guys spouting that give me a name of a hospital I can go to for a hip replacement and feel better about it than either one of our hospitals here in Bismarck. I think you can not help me.
  70. DustOff3
    DustOff3 said on: November 19, 2009, 11:49 am
    Kath...It is BAD to be RICH???? I am not rich by any measure. I watch my pennies. Now my nephew is rich and you know what he is doing? He is looking at Panama, Costa Rica, India, etc as destinations for his business. What that means is that jobs now in California will go overseas. He needs to do this to remain competitive cause California and the U.S. tax structure and related costs are hitting his business hard. Now here is a North Dakota kid that has to do what he has to do to survive. Now about Envesco moving to England to obtain a competitive tax atmosphere to compete with their competitors? I never thought I would live long enough to see Great Brittan having a more competitive business environment that the U.S. Notice the number of people moving out of New York State...these have been identified as tax payers not food stamp recipients. People on this site do not like the capitalistic system. What they think is irrelevant cause we are in the process of killing the private sector in a rush to become wards of the state that can not afford any more wards!!! Is a move to Panama in my future? I should hope not but a guy has got to do what a guy has got to do. Where will you go to obtain non rationed health care?
  71. Ignatius
    Ignatius said on: November 19, 2009, 11:27 am
    Que Orwellian editorial!

    The government increases their standards and catches more PRIVATE health providers committing fraud, and this is somehow evidence that there's something wrong with government?

    Someone said something about liberals having trouble with the facts, yet apparently doesn't have the critical thinking skills to notice that the editorial staff, with their slack-jawed yokel propaganda version of white-trash journalism, omit the explanation of why there's more (more private interests committing fraud, and the government increasing their scrutiny and catching it).

    Those who are capable of critical thinking would immediately conclude the opposite. This not only proves that the government can and does catch fraud, but that the problem is our awful healthcare system, in which private interests are trying to capitalize on, profit from the sick and the dying, by committing fraud.

    If you want to say government can't run health care, then you need to look at governments running health care. Remove for-profit providers and replace them with public providers and measure governments ability to based on the quality of that health care. Fact is, the governments of 3rd world countries are providing better health care than our private sector.

    How much more proof do you need?

  72. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 11:26 am
    Dear Mr. Navy, as I have pointed out, not one single Republican will vote for health care for everyone. The reason is very clear and the Republicans freely admit it. The Republicans refuse to raise taxes on the rich so the common people can have health care. There is no way to defend this simple greed motivated voting. What kind of hardship would it impose on the wealthy if their taxes were raised by a few percentage to pay for health care? Would they have to drop the temperature in the pool a few degrees? Would they have to keep their car for three years instead of two? Would they only be able to stay in a four star hotel instead of a five? How could we possibly be so crass as to ask the rich to suffer in such painful ways just so 45,000 Americans don't die every year? For the first time every taxes were not raised on the wealthy to pay for the war in Iraq. Since they got a free ride on the war, could they chip in on health care? No, good Christians know God wants the rich to be comfortable while the poor die from lack of health insurance, any preacher can tell you that.
  73. the old navy
    the old navy said on: November 19, 2009, 10:55 am
    Kadizzle said:
    The Medicare fraud pails in comparison to the tax break fraud the Republicans have engineered.

    Why don't you get off your soapbox. How many of the democrats and liberals have profited from these tax breaks?

  74. just a thought
    just a thought said on: November 19, 2009, 10:13 am
    I see alot of prominent names being bantered about to justify the position from both sides. I believe that for every corrupt person or act on one side of the issue, there has been another on the other side. So, the name dropping is a moot point as is the generalization that the action of one person or entity completely identifies the character of everybody on that side of the issue. Frankly, over the course of the last couple of months, I have become increasingly disgusted with the tone of the posts. There no longer is room for open and fair debate, only opportunities for certain individuals to denegrate and humiliate (read bullying) any who dare have a position counter to that bully's opinion. Any position that is so tenuous that they have to resort to bullying tactics is a position subject to complete disregard.
  75. warmachine
    warmachine said on: November 19, 2009, 10:05 am
    Kadizzle....you and reality need to get together and patch up your differences.
  76. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 9:23 am
    Kathleen, there is a difference between the rich who are fighting for the poor, and the rich who are suppressing the poor. The rich Democrats are trying to provide healthcare for everyone. The greedy rich Republicans want to make sure they don't have to pay more tax to help the poor. Now do you get it.
  77. Kathleen
    Kathleen said on: November 19, 2009, 9:03 am
    I don't understand why this is always about the rich being Republicans. The top three wealthiest senators are Democrats: John Kerry of Massachusetts, with a net worth of at least $164 million; Herb Kohl of Wisconsin, with a net worth of at least $111 million, and John "Jay" Rockefeller of West Virginia, with an estimated net worth of at least $82 million. We have plenty of wealthy Democrats who get the same advantages.

    Part of the Change I was hoping for was real reform and to clean up the coruption in Washington.

  78. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 8:57 am
    Anyone who is literate knows how much fraud has been perpetrated on the Military in this country. Should we do away with the Military, or turn it over to the private sector. One need only look at how Blackwater in Iraq has defrauded the U.S. government to know where the real fraud is. How about Haliburton the beloved company of Dick Cheney selling a case of Coke to the Army for $45. Go Dick Go, See Dick Cheat us Sally. Who is defrauding our military? Yup it is the great corporations like McDonnel Douglas, and the rest of the Military Industrial complex. You never hear the Bismarck Tribune complain when North Dakota farmers bilk the government with Farm Subsidies. Fruad is in the eye of the beholder. When the Lt. Governor of N.D. gets over a million dollars in subsidies for his "Farming", is that fraud? When the health insurance industry give Senator Conrad two million to oppose health care reform is that fraud? For the Tribune the only fraud they recognize is when the common people want the rich to pay their share of taxes.
  79. warmachine
    warmachine said on: November 19, 2009, 8:52 am
    Kadizzle....quitcherbitchen about the rich. There is nothing worth trying to "Fix" with that inevitable constant. There are always "Rich" folks and there always will be.... so quit beating that dead horse. Medicare fraud is the issue....fix that and move on to the next REAL problem that is worth your time kadizzle.
  80. Halatbis
    Halatbis said on: November 19, 2009, 8:44 am
    As the postings to this article show, the Left and the Democrats are not interested in the "fraud" aspect of Medicare because it shows that the system is incapable of policing itself. Our federal government is incompetent in managing programs such as these; the Internal Revenue service, who is much feared, has a pathetic record of investigating fraud and in preventing massive tax cheating.
    We need only look at people like Charlie Rangel, Tom Daschel, Tim Geithner, the Clintons, etc. to see that our federal government cannot do the job because they are unwilling to put in the work and effort to do it.

    The proposed health Care bill in congress is a mother-lode of invitations for fraud and cheating. Unintended consequences?? Greed? Put a pot of money in front of people and they will find a way to get some of it.

  81. The other side of the coin
    The other side of the coin said on: November 19, 2009, 8:41 am
    From the tone and content of this so called editorial, it is clear the Bismarck Tribune is not interested in the well being of the little man or women that it so hypocritically tries to represent.

    That is what happens to your small town newspaper when it and its editorial staff is controlled by a corporation called Lee Enterprises of Davenport, Iowa whose sole interest is profit.

    Colonel Clement A. Lounsberry, founder of the Bismarck Tribune, has to be moaning and turning over in his grave. Colonel Lounsberry founded the Bismarck Tribune July 6, 1873 and the first paper came off the press on July 11, 1873 making it the first newspaper published in North Dakota.

    The Tribune writes, using Medicare, as its premise, “It does provide empirical evidence that a government-run, public-option health insurance scheme will not be effective in controlling rising health care costs.”

    That is rubbish. I am on Medicare and have never detected any fraud, I am not denying it may happen but do we need to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater, when all we need to do is change the water?

    Clearly the Tribune says NO when we say yes, or BLACK when we say white. Sadly the Tribune is an obstructionist tool of the far right just like all the negative TV commercials we are presently being blitzkrieged with.

  82. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 8:19 am
    Greed is good, it motivates people like Bernie Madoff to do "The Right Thing".
  83. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 8:18 am
    Warren Buffet is one of the few wealthy people with morality. Warren Buffet wrote an editorial to the Washington Post in which he explained how he only owed 17 percent tax on his 40 million dollar income thanks to the Bush tax cuts. Mr. Buffet pointed out that his receptionist paid more tax on a percentage basis than he did. Now would some right winger tell me Warren Buffet, the second richest man in the country is lying?Warren bet one million dollars to anyone who could prove him wrong. No one has. Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates both think there should be a strong estate tax. Now, the two richest people in the country say the current tax system is unfair and favors the rich. Are they wrong? Both of them are giving away over ninety percent of their fortunes rather than turn it over to trust babies. Please some right wing greed monger tell these two men are deluded.
  84. terrier
    terrier said on: November 19, 2009, 8:16 am
    Again the emotional ranting makes little sense. First there was a discussion of individual taxes.............that somehow became (greedy) corporations. Individulas and corprations alike have their share of Democrats, Republicans and Independents.........so where is the logic in all this?
  85. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 8:04 am
    Union Thug, Malcom Forbes was the ultimate pig. Malcom threw a party at one time in the Desert of Northern Africa. All his guest were flown in on the Concord. Malcom had ice flown in. Within miles of the multi-million dollar party tent people were dying from starvation. Love Malcom. Pat Robertson is another classic case. Good old Pat is worth 600 million. He begs for money from old ladies on social security. Pat has a fine mansion, race horses, and his own private plane. Pat spent 22 million to run for president. Of course Pat and Malcom deserve the money. They earned it by robbing working people. To expect them to pay taxes so we all could have health care would be a travesty. God want them to have it all. The Christian god of the rich has his priorities, health care for everyone is not one of them.
  86. terrier
    terrier said on: November 19, 2009, 7:58 am
    Facts and logic usually escape the "liberal" mind.....perhaps there are other reliable sources for tax percentages that can substantiate the previous emotional rhetoric? :)
  87. Union THUG
    Union THUG said on: November 19, 2009, 7:56 am
    "Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office".


    -- I would say the GAO is as credible of source as any.

  88. Union THUG
    Union THUG said on: November 19, 2009, 7:46 am
    The Tax Foundation is another rightwing think tank that is obviously going to twist things to promote the "poor little rich people" victim narrative. Therefore, I will believe the opposite of anything they say. Most corporations don't even pay ANY taxes whatsoever. Here is one of many sources of that claim: http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/


    Please forgive me if I have no sympathy for those poor little rich victims that are getting rich exclusively off of working class people.

  89. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 7:44 am
    It is the same old game. Only mention one side of the story. The top one percent get 17% of the income. Pretty good deal no matter how much tax they pay. By the same measure the top five percent of the population gets 90 percent of the income. So if you pay forty percent of the tax, but get ninety percent of the income what is the problem? It is simply greed. Who really needs three homes, a jet, and all the other wasteful trappings of wealth when they do it by denying the rest of the country affordable health care? This immoral greed driven nonsense cannot be justifies. Why would any decent person try to defend this greed when so many have so little and 45,000 Americans die every year for lack of health insurance. Please tell me why it is more important the wealthy have three or four vacation homes while others die from lack of health care. The rich scream because their taxes will be raised to pay for health care. Where are the "Good" Christians in this debate. There is no way you can morally support the greed of the Republicans.
  90. terrier
    terrier said on: November 19, 2009, 7:29 am
    From the Tax Foundation: The top 1% of taxpayers (AGI over $364,657) earned approximately 21.2% of the nation's income (as defined by AGI), yet paid 39.4% of all federal income taxes. That means the top 1% of tax returns paid about the same amount of federal individual income taxes as the bottom 95% of tax returns.

    Amazing how some refuse to properly inform themselves.

  91. majorwood
    majorwood said on: November 19, 2009, 7:25 am
    Kadizzle, I am puzzled by your rant. Benefits are capped on $106k of income, so why not payments? We have a progressive federal code with rates from 0 - 35%, and with deductions low income taxpayers pay no income tax and even get money back through EITC. High income earners pay the vast majority of taxes.
  92. Kadizzle
    Kadizzle said on: November 19, 2009, 6:49 am
    The Medicare fraud pails in comparison to the tax break fraud the Republicans have engineered. Capping payments to social security at $106,000 has been the biggest windfall for the rich imaginable. Each dollar over that amount is free from the extra 7 or 15 percent tax the less fortunate pay. The federal deficit would disappear if the rich paid social security tax on every dollar they earned like ordinary people do. To add injury to insult the Republicans have given tax breaks to the wealthy and now refuse to ask the wealthy to pay their share so we can have real health care reform. The Bismarck Tribune is a right wing newspaper that endorsed Sara Palin, and follows the tax breaks for the rich line promoted by the teabaggers. The demise of the middle class can be directly traced to the unwillingness of the wealthy to pay their share of taxes. When the country had a progressive income tax all statistics show the middle class prospered. Since the trend to allow the rich to become our new aristocracy was started by Reagan, the middle class has suffered. Why the workers on the plantation vote for Republicans that provide tax breaks for the master is a mystery. The only plausible answer is that the workers all dream they will be the master some day. Just like pulling the handle on a slot machine, it makes no sense, but neither does the whole Republican tax break for the rich routine. Like the card game the trick of this editorial is to divert attention. The real fraud is the tax structure in our country, Medicare is small peanuts, but it is a good diversion rather than write about the real injustice. Also isn't it ironic that this same newspaper is against health care reform? Yup, the Tribune loves the working man as long as he isn't in a union.
  93. terrier
    terrier said on: November 19, 2009, 5:25 am
    And you can add the most recent discovery of possible fraud to that of Medicare.......the so called stimulus money aka "the Recovery Act". The monitors at recovery.gov must not be too savvy about America’s political or geographic landscape. More than $2 million was given to the 99th District of North Dakota, a state which has only one congressional district. In order to qualify for 99 districts, North Dakota would have to have a population of about 60 million people.
    So where 's the money?!

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