Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - Salt would make our streets safer

Salt would make our streets safer

Nov 14, 2008 - 04:05:27 CST

By DAN JOHNSON
Bismarck

Salt would have been the answer

The first major snow of the season has come and gone. Four days later, the streets in this city are atrocious, to put it mildly. Plows were out early and did a good job of making the streets passable, but they're far from good by anyone's standards. What is it going to take to change the minds at the Department of Public Works on the topic of salt usage?

I realize this snowfall was somewhat unique. We had 70 degree temperatures just a few days before the storm hit, so the warm streets created a buildup of slush underneath the snow. Our subsequent colder weather had turned that slush into a thick slab of ice. Some of our major thoroughfares are so rough and rutted it's like driving down a prairie section line.

There is a cure for this. There is a wonderful substance made of sodium and chlorine that most of us have heard of. It's salt, folks. Forget about the miniscule amount of salt that is blended into the sand that is thrown on top of the snow and ice around here.

We need our city crews to be laying down pure salt to do the job properly. The mix that is used now does nothing but turn the snow into a light brown slushy mess that is slicker than the natural snow and ice and turns everything brown. Dumping plain salt would do a far better job of clearing the ice, as it is effective down to 10 above at melting ice. We could easily have clear, clean streets by now if the city were to forget the sand and use salt on our streets.

And for the naysayers who argue about the corrosive effects that road salt has on our vehicles, there is a simple and cheap cure for that as well. Two words, kids: car wash. In the long run, would you rather do business with your local car wash or your local body shop? I never had any rust trouble with my cars for the eight years I spent in the Twin Cities, and they use a lot of salt on their streets. An occasional trip to the local car wash cures it.

News > Opinion

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Comments

billy bob wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:13 PM:

" DOT TAKE NOTE: The interstate is more hazerdous because of salt! Today you've proved my point in an earlier post. The interstate has been salted and is now slippery and covered in slush. The 2 lane road I live on 3 miles off the interstate has good traction and is not slippery because the snow blew off from traffic and wind. Use salt on compacted snow and ice but don't make the roads worse with it. It would save money and the environment. "

REX wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:38 PM:

" Salt would make our streets safer by virtueof the fact that everyones' car would be undrivable due to rust. Remember the old days? "

learn how to drive wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:06 PM:

" Why put more salt in the mix when all everyone has to do is slow down, use caution, and stop tailgating. Why make the city pay more when if you follow these simple rules, everyone gets where they need to be just fine. "

DG wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:41 PM:

" Right on Billy Bob! "

billy bob wrote on Nov 18, 2008 6:58 PM:

" NO SALT! It creates more problems than it's worth. I lived in MN, IL, IA where they salt before a snow storm. Then the snow comes, sticks to the road and creates an icy mess where in many cases it would blow over the road and not be a problem. Roads are wet and get icy if the wind comes up. Drive smart, clean the roads after a storm, we'll be better off. "

Sand Isnt Enough wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:24 PM:

" Sand isn't enough. It's better to worry about your car rusting than having the front/rear end bashed in because it was too icy. Sand not only doesn't work as well, but is far worse to cleanup after in the spring. I lived in Minneapolis for years and I rarely saw cars that were rusted I see more rust buckets driving around here. The city also needs to realize that dumping sand/salt on top of snow isnt going to do anything, especially once it gets plowed away (two days later). Its designed to remove ICE, and works much better when it reacts with the pavement. The sand would be more effective if they would learn how to use it properly. "

Hog Man wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:50 PM:

" So, "just say no," how do you propose we slow down when there's so much glare ice that our brakes (and steering wheels and accelerator pedals) are rendered useless? Wouldn't a bit of traction help out in the process of slowing down? Hmmm? "

Matt wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:56 AM:

" I think the road crews did a fine job considering the conditions. We cannot expect the roads to be perfect all of the time living where we live.
The sand/salt mix does an adequate job if people would learn to slow down, increase follow distance, and leave early for thier destinations. We go through this year after year. We get snow and on the evening news they talk about all of the fender benders there were in town. Can't we figure this out?
Finally, how much time would salt really save us if we are spending 15-30 mins a pop waiting in line at the car wash? "

Traveler wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:24 PM:

" In Minnesota, they are decreasing the use of road salt because of damage to watersheds as well as corrosion damage to bridges and vehicles:

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/16912511.html

"... the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (MPCA) has started to classify some Twin Cities streams as legally "impaired" from chloride contamination." "

just say no to salt wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:23 PM:

" Seriously! Salt is not the answer. First, have you seen our cars here in Minnesota? Rust-eze bumper ointment couldn't help us! Second, it goes into the water. Why wreck the good thing you have going on? An easy fix is to slow down!! "

TB23 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:51 AM:

" I think people just need to stop complaining and learn how to drive. Remember it is ND. Try living in GF or Fargo... They rarely even sand and don't use the snow gates for anything above 3 inches (about) in Grand Forks. In Fargo, they also are very slow at getting things clean, usually one lane until 2 days after the snow. So those of you who think that your life came to an end when you got the 9 inches, learn to slow down and figure out how to drive on ice... it isnt that hard! "

MamaMia wrote on Nov 17, 2008 9:04 AM:

" Punker, you're blogging when you SHOULD be at church with the rest of the family! "

to DW wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:49 AM:

" HAHAHA heat tubes under the roads, the city does not put a gravel base under the street now heat tubes I hope you digging out your checkbook for that one.

Did anyone watch the plows during this snow we had. I did and I noticed that the snowgates does not allow the snow to flow from the plow it caught the snowgate when the gate was up it just got to be a bigger pile infront of the plow then the plows started spinning the tires and that was when they were leaving the street with snow that the plow could not clean. when they dropped the snowgate the plow was full and the snow was coming around the front of the gate they could barely push past a small driveway with out spinning out. its my opinion that there was to much snow for the snowgates to work properly. I have watch be the plows before gate my driveway with less snow on the ground and the snowgates did a very good job. I watch the snow plows and they were haveing a very hard time getting the snow to the curb and wider parts of the street they were not able to get it tio the curb, I watch the plow back up 3 time and still could not get it to the curb.
I also noticed that where they do sand at the intersections the salt sand did the job most of the bad snow pack areas were in the middle of the blocks not by the intersections, I did say most areas. So I think we need to give these guys a break instead of busting their chops. I read in the paper about minot haveing the same problems as we did here is bismarck. And all the bad critisim was giving the plow operators bad moral in minot. Thats not good "

David Down South wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:49 AM:

" Hi I am a Kentuckian with North Dakota family. When I read this article about salting roads, I realized the huge differences in our 2 states. In Kentucky, if you see a white flake of death falling from the sky, you must immediately go to the grocery and buy as much bread and milk as you can carry. Never know when we may get an inch of accumulation and shut down the state for a week. We shutdown schools based on weather forecasts. We have no snow plows. We salt our streets when we think it might snow When it does snow, we have absolutely no idea of how to drive a vehicle. The only thing that you see moving with any consistency are the wrecker trucks pulling cars out of the ditches around the clock until the snow finally melts. I have been in ND when you had a large snow (4 inches to me a total catasprohe). I saw no salt but sand and cinders everywhere. People driving slow. People who knew how to handle their situation with snow. I wondered about salt but i know that salt doesnt work well when temps are below 18f. I just thought that ND's super cold temps kept the road department from wasting their money from throwing salt on a road for no reason. With the temps you had with your last blizzard, the salt would have definitely helped but you all must realize, your state is decades ahead of experience on how to handle bad roads during the winter. "

Jonny B wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:22 PM:

" Read this please: All four study streams exhibited significant increases in chloride concentrations at sampling stations located 50 and 100 m downstream from the highway. Chloride concentrations in downstream samples were as much as --- 31 times higher--- than comparative upstream samples. "

Punker wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:13 AM:

" My research last night found that salt (and pepper and garlic) actually ADDED to my enjoyment of an 8 ounce tenderloin on the grill. I really think we're underrating salt here people... "

Jonny B wrote on Nov 16, 2008 10:23 AM:

" AN ANSWER : Minimize Use of Salt
Fish, other aquatic organisms and sensitive wetland plants
cannot survive under high salt conditions. Salts used to
melt snow run off into water bodies with spring snowmelts.
Limit salt use on driveways. Water softener salts can
contaminate groundwater through septic fields. Sewage
treatment works also do not remove salts. Minimize
softener salt use by setting your system to recharge based
A STUDY: (1) College of Environmental Science and Forestry, Adirondack Ecological Center, State University of New York, 12852 Newcomb, NY, USA Received: 9 June 1989 Revised: 17 November 1989
Abstract A 2 yr study was conducted in 1987 and 1988 to determine the effects of road salt run-off from New York State highway 28N on chloride levels in four tributary streams to Rich Lake, located in the central Adirondack Mountains of New York. All four study streams exhibited significant increases in chloride concentrations at sampling stations located 50 and 100 m downstream from the highway. Chloride concentrations in downstream samples were as much as 31 times higher than comparative upstream samples. Elevated chloride levels continued throughout the 6 mo period following the termination of winter salt applications. A water chemistry profile developed for Rich Lake revealed a slight increase in chloride content at lower depths.
on water use rather than on a set time schedule. "

Hog Man wrote on Nov 16, 2008 6:58 AM:

" This is about SAFETY, not convenience. Salt is effective at removing ice. Sand is effective at making everything filthy. Bismarck ALREADY USES SALT...just not nearly enough. The drivers around here are so crappy, they need all the help they can get. "

DW wrote on Nov 15, 2008 7:10 PM:

" The solution is simple and environmentally friendly. Solar powered heat tubes under the streets. It would be much like a heated garage floor. Large solar collectors could pipe hot water under the streets to keep the pavement warm and therefore thawed. No chemicals would get into the watershed, the green areas along the streets, or onto our cars causing rusts and corrosion. Solar heat would work anytime the sunshines right? "

Deb wrote on Nov 15, 2008 5:24 PM:

" Johnny B: do you have evidence (peer reviewed, prefferably) of the irreversable damamge that NaCl makes to watersheds, or rivers of the size of the Missouri?

I don't have any to prove my point either (that salt runoff doesn't hurt watershed), but I guess that I just assume with a state full of granolas like MN, that if the NaCl and the KCl that they use to clear their roads is so bad for the environment, they'd have changed their policy years ago. I'm just sayin'... "

Jonny B wrote on Nov 15, 2008 5:11 PM:

" Yes Deb, salt is a naturally occurring substance. However, do we really need to add tens of thousand of pounds of not naturally occurring salt into our Missouri River water shed. I am concerned about agricultural runoff as well. Lets stick to the subject of salt. "

Punker wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:49 PM:

" and what about the silent masses that PREFER saltier drinking water?!?!! "

Deb wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:20 AM:

" Johnny B: salt is a naturally occurring mineral. of everything that runns off into the river, salt is the least of our worries. "

John wrote on Nov 15, 2008 4:04 AM:

" NO TO SALT.
I lived in Aberdeen for a few years, they use 100 percent salt, the doors on the business I worked at were even rusted out bad, and when we tried to remove them after only being on for 5 or 6 years, all the bolts were seized. The business was maybe twenty feet from the street, and all the salt spray from cars going normal sunny day speeds was getting all over our building, no thanks. We would get cars in there that the brake lines were rusted out and we had to replace them, along with fuel lines. Not safe at all. All the junkyards were full of rusted out cars, Bad rust, and good luck trying to unbolt something from underneath the car, Ha. good one.
Slow down, simple enough, there isnt anywhere in this town you need to be at so fast, leave a little early, and dont demand they salt the roads so you can drive like an idiot 365 days a year, bad enough around here on sunny days.
I also will not buy a car from anywhere in MN. three year old cars are starting to show bad signs of rust. No thanks. On a quiet night you can hear the cars rusting in MN. Why do you want that, not everyone can afford new cars every three years, and I dont want to be on the road with someone driving a 4 year old car that the brake lines are rusted out. "

Jonny B wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:00 PM:

" We are getting off track except for river. I have to say it again: My main concern it the fact that the run off from the streets eventually run into the Missouri River. I would like to keep our river fresh water rather than salt water. " "

Sand trucks wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:50 PM:

" The sand trucks in the city should also have a plow on the front.

The way it is now when we get 1-2-3 or more inches of snow all they do is throw the sand on top of the fallen snow. Then later (a day maybe) a plow will come by and push the snow and sand to the boulevard.

Why not put a plow on the front of the sand trucks? "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:38 PM:

" Did eveybody skip over the line where Mr. Johnson mentions the cure for the corrosive effects of salt? Car wash people - seriously!!

And really- I drive the same car now that spent many a-winter on the salt covered roads of MN - and I'm AWFUL at washing my car - and still - NO corrosion, no rust.

What's more important? Saving lives or saving your precious car? "

river wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:01 PM:

" real materialistic of you Dan,,, your car.

who cares about our watershed.!

our top soil... who cares,, as long as dans car is clean. "

C3PO wrote on Nov 14, 2008 3:53 PM:

" People, people: next time it snows, go to public works and drive the snowplows and sanding trucks. See how easy it is to get around parked cars, cars driving on the streets, etc., etc. Then complain all you want. Until you've walked in their shoes... and all that. People will complain if the streets are TOO clean. "

you can keep MPLS drivers wrote on Nov 14, 2008 2:44 PM:

" Dan I also lived in Mpls for five years and I disagree with your perception of the benefits of salt. Every year without fail one the first day of snow you could add a guaranteed 1 1/2 hours to your travel time to work because of all the accidents. It amazed me it was like these people never saw snow before in their life there was no explanation for it except that people were driving too fast and too close to each other and could not properly control their vehicles. This blizzard we had left a major sheet of ice under all the roads which caused accidents and created the traveling problems everyone had. Salt wrecks vehicles and I am one of several people I know who wouldn't buy a vehicle from MN because of the visible and hidden rust damage they all end up with. So put your lowrider in storage for the winter or stay on the snow emergency routes in town when you drive until the plows get a chance to catch up. I think the plow operators did a good job getting things cleaned up with the manpower and equipment they have. Thanks Plowman "

agree wrote on Nov 14, 2008 2:30 PM:

" Use some of the surplus money the state has, to buy more snow removal equipment, and work continusly from the first inches of accumulated snow until it is gone. "

Judy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 2:18 PM:

" I came to work early on Friday morning, and some of the main streets were fairly clean, which was nice. However, when I left at the end of the day, I didn't see anything different from the early morning, in terms of cleaning. I saw no plows, or sand trucks. And, did not see any until the following Tuesday. I know the storm was bad, but I also think that a forecast of warmer (i.e., melting) temperatures may have affected the cleaning. Obviously, if you can save some time/effort by having the snow melt, it's good. However, that's also a good time to be cleaning, because I would think it's easier to remove(?). Also, the refreezing at night adds to the ruts, etc., and slippery conditions. It was obvious on many streets that the "cleaning" was due to a combination of melting temperatures and vehicles driving on it. "

to NDFREEZE wrote on Nov 14, 2008 2:07 PM:

" the dot is not involved with clearing city streets, that is bismarck public works "

MamaMia wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:51 PM:

" Punker, you just got on my last nerve. Don't make me stop this car! ;>)) "

NDFREEZE wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:30 PM:

" Has everyone forgot how to drive on ice and snow?? Slow down people. While I agree things could have been better if the DOT would have jumped on the situation when the streets started to freeze at 3:30 in the afternoon, but we didn't see a sand truck until the next day or two -- imagine if they dumped that on the streets just as they froze and then the snow came -- would have been a lot better driving conditions. But when it comes down to it, even if you have big 4x4 truck, just slow down and give yourself plenty of room to stop between cars. "

free will wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:28 PM:

" I am serious check into beet extract. "

Internet Bulley wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:59 PM:

" You can tell it's been awhile since ND has seen a "REAL" winter. You know the winters with all the white cold stuff. I think they used to call it "SNOW" "

Internet Bulley wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:54 PM:

" I say NO SALT. I drive older classic cars and trucks made completely of steel. My cars can take a hit from a newer car at 20 mph and sustain no more than a broken tail light. If Bismarck starts to salt my 'classics' will be in the scrap yard in a few years time. The only reason why they have lasted this long is cause they have seen very little salt in the winter. "

Jonny B wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:43 PM:

" My major concern is not cars and bridges, all though this must be taken into consideration before dumping salt on to our streets. My main concern it the fact that the run off from street eventually runs into the Missouri River. I would like to keep our river fresh water rather than salt water. "

Punker wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:39 PM:

" more salt in the watershed has been proven to deter roaming mountain lions from the area as well. where will the benefits end?!?! "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:33 PM:

" For the record - Mpls uses a potassium salt (KCl) on their bridges to help with the icing - and the MNDOT just came out with it s final report that the KCl did NOT cause the bridge collapse - it was shoddy construction and poorly manufactured girders.

Mr. Johnson - I'm with you 100%-- not just in town, but on the highways. In a former life, I used to travel quite a bit back and forth between Mpls & Bis. The Bis to Fargo route was invariably a death zone of icy roads. The second you pass over the MN-ND border, the roads were clear and dry.

In this world of undercoating and high-impact fast-dry paint jobs - there's no reason not to use salt. "

To Hog Man wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:07 PM:

" In regard to your comment that salt doesn't cause damage to pavement - As was noted by a transportation engineer in the article below, the use of salt on the "old" memorial bridge caused the deterioration of the concrete piers and eventual demise of the entire structure. The engineer specifically noted the railroad bridge across the MIssouri is lasting longer than the old memorial bridge because of the use of salt.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/02/24/news/topnews/110543.txt "

Pheasant Hunter wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:50 AM:

" If you like salt so much, go back to Minnesota. I like my car the way it is. Have you tried to wash during the winter? Sometimes the car washes are closed because of cold weather, and when they are open, you have doors and windows freezing shut. Too bad that we finally got some snow for you to complain about. "

nosalt wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:12 AM:

" yea , lets use salt , just like MPLS,,, and our bridge can collapse as well,,, great idea dan.

salt damages more than cars...

it damages the earth, it damages fresh water,, more salt in our watershed, along with all the pesticides and herbicides, and cow crap,,,

thanx dan. "

Too Funny wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:10 AM:

" Holly cow, first time we had snow in 4 years and everyone is bent outta shape that they can't travel 40mph cuz thats what the sign sezs i can drive. I'm sure alot of you just hadda get out to see if the streets were being cleaned just to have something to complain about. Find something to do in the house and be patient and thank God for all the beautiful moisture we got for our lawns. "

Hog Man wrote on Nov 14, 2008 10:57 AM:

" DS, what on Earth are you talking about? If it rains once, even a little bit, the salt residue disappears. As for the runoff...according to the anti-salt folks here, there should be no life whatsoever in the Mississippi River anywhere downstream from Anoka, MN because of all the salt usage in the Twin Cities. Oops...there goes that little theory. I wonder how if a lot of the anti-salt people own stock in body shops or something? "

ds wrote on Nov 14, 2008 10:01 AM:

" salt and sand work fine, as do the 'other' chemicals in use these days. in the spring when things warm up and dry out notice the cloud of 'dust' kicked up by traffic on the heavily traveled streets. you can taste all that stuff as it runs through your sinuses and down your throat! so whatever we use must be considered as far as runoff and such. "

no brainer wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:53 AM:

" What about the brine from oil wells? I am sure they are putting it somewhere, why not here? "

Harleyp wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:48 AM:

" First of all the city of Bismarck has 3 snow plows and how mush streets? To blame the drivers is insane.

Second with 9 plus inches of snow won't hep till it is compacted. Salt or no wash your cars more and there is such a thing as undercoating your car which only makes sense living in a place like North Dakota, Wait that is suppose to be put on free.

Oh right the people say taxes to high and whine. At same time want all new improvements, repairs and maintence that goes with time and growth. Go figure. Get real. "

Hog Man wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:43 AM:

" Salt isn't nearly as bad on cars and green spaces and pavement as some would be led to believe. Modern car washes also have under-carriage sprayers that eliminate residue under the vehicle. We already HAVE salt in the sand/salt mix that's being put down. The 10% that is salt does a tiny bit of good, while the 90% that is sand tracks into our driveways, garages, entryways, living rooms, kitchens, etc. and makes a mess. I'd like to see more salt used here. Not so I can "fly" up the street without any caution, but so I can actually get some traction and not get smashed into by a careless Bismarck driver. "

wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:25 AM:

" If salt was used, you'd just be complaining in a few years about how corroded your car was getting!! "

justice for all wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:12 AM:

" You don't need salt BUT SOME SAND WOULD HELP! "

MamaMia wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:30 AM:

" Dan, I agree with you 100%! Anyone who has been in Mpls in the winter knows that with very few exceptions, traffic travels at normal speeds during and after a snow storm. This is due to Minnesota's using SALT on their highways and byways. Let's get into the 21st century North Dakota! Is there some kind of law or something that prevents North Dakota from using salt? If so, let's get rid of it and provide our citizens with safe travel during our long, cold, snowy winters. "

No salt please wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:19 AM:

" There are other de-icers that can be used without making our cars look like they came from Minnesota. "

The other side of the coin wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:17 AM:

" Salt is not only corrosive to the metal on automobiles it is also destructive to pavement and any green areas bordering the streets or where ever the storm sewers carry it. A salt and sand mix is also expensive; do you want your taxes to go sky high? I think the city crews did an admirable job considering the conditions prior to the storm, during the storm, after the storm and the type of storm. Patience is a virtue. "

Socks wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:06 AM:

" Car washes do not stop all the corrosive effects of ice. You need to get under the car too. I lived in MN and it's sad to a car a few years old having to fix rust spots. "

dof wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:00 AM:

" I find it ironic that EPA/NDSHD is riding farmers and ranchers with small cow herds about livestock waste (manure) getting into state waters. Yet here you folks are, all for dumping tons and tons(probably 100's of tons) of NaCl, or CaCl, into the Missouri River watershed just so city motorists can "fly" up and down the streets without using any caution or common sense. I guess it just goes to show where priorities are placed, and what some people feel is important to protect the environment. "

salt wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:24 AM:

" Dan, you did not do your homework on salt, it damages cars. "

free will wrote on Nov 14, 2008 6:19 AM:

" I think beet extract would be better for the environment and less damaging to our vehicles. "

Been Around wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:53 AM:

" Had the city been more dilligent about clearing the roads, it wouldn't have been a problem. "

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